It grew well in the sandy soils of the Netherlands and became an important part of the local economy. My go to alternative for alizarin crimson is Best Price - This is the lowest price offered for an item. It works very well when you need to warm up shadows. Probably. Phthalo Green Blue Shade though. In my early days of just starting out in painting, (late 1970’s) I went to an art supply shop and was told about a color that I just had to have. PS I should have said W&N oil paint permanent Alizarin Crimson. They told me some professional artist used it in everything. Unfortunately I am not able to open your image and I tried a couple of different ways. People who use Alizarin Crimson don’t use it to make a clean purple; well, you can make a decent purple with Cobalt Blue/Alizarin, but that’s not what it’s there for. Thanks for the FYI. explore in a future blog! Yes I know that AZ differs from brand to brand and that some are not light fast. I used an old pair of tin snips but there might be a better cutting tool to use. Its particular depth of colour, transparency, and tinting strength make it an incredibly useful colour in an artists palette. Synthetic paper is a relatively new surface option for artists that provides ... Of all the artist colours, black may well have the longest history. I am sure that you are not alone. I have received many positive testimonials from people how have taken the course. This item M. Graham & Co. Acrylic Paint Alizarin Crimson. This was accomplished by isolating part of the madder root colorant, 1,2 dihydroxyanthraquinone (Alizarin), from the more fugitive 1,2,4 trihydrozyanthraquinone (Purpurin). So I got it. But I have had many a student who tries to make a purple from AZ, hence one reason for writing this blog. Thanks for the comment and kind words about my site. They do work well together because they are related in hue and chroma. It would be interesting to compare these colors to carmine (the one made from cochineal). Yes you’re right, it’s much pinker than the Alizarin Crimson. Excellent match in masstone, transparency, and tint compared to the more fugitive Alizarin Crimson. Hi Ingrid. Alizarin Crimson (PR 83:1, ASTM III) Alizarin Crimson was created in 1868 by the German chemists, Grabe and Lieberman, as a more lightfast substitute to Genuine Rose Madder. ), http://joeltraylor.com/2000-2002/#!enviragallery353-15, http://dvqlxo2m2q99q.cloudfront.net/000_clients/134875/page/w400-13487514179DIJb.jpg, http://craftsy.com/ext/CarolMcIntyre_4990_F, Step-by-Step Painting Demos & Commissions. For artists who have concerns about the lightfastness of PR83, there are lightfast substitutes available. He concludes that PR83 is unsuitable for professional watercolour artworks. You are welcome Retta and keep discovering all of these lovely colors we have at our fingertips. It is a deep, cool red with a high tinting strength and, despite concerns about its lightfastness, many artists find the colour indispensable. Row 1: Michael Harding Oil Paint : Alizarin Crimson (PR83) and Michael Harding Oil Paint: Crimson Lake (PR149), Row 2: Daniel Smith Extra Fine Watercolour : Alizarin Crimson (PR83) and Daniel Smith Extra Fine Watercolour : Permanent Alizarin Crimson (PR177, PV19, PR149), Row 3: Jackson’s Artist Watercolour : Alizarin Crimson (PR83) and Michael Harding Oil Paint : Alizarin Claret (PR177), Row 4: Jackson’s Professional Oil Paint : Alizarin Crimson and Jackson’s Artist Acrylic : Alizarin Crimson Hue (PR112, PR12). It has a lot of binder in it since its a hue (manmade synthetic pigment). Joe says to try mixing Alizarin Crimson with Joe's Green to create a nice clean dark color. Much appreciated! though? Pyrrole Rubin carrying PR264. sunlight and fading. think it makes such beautiful colour mixes. worry about work being exposed too long to I hope this is helpful. Smith Alizarin Crimson… not so keen on the My first color classes were with only watercolor….FYI. American Journey Artists' Watercolor, Alizarin Crimson has a ruby-red undertone with a cooler hue of the color red that leans slightly more towards purple than towards orange on the color wheel. Because of its blue hue, it is easily persuaded to make dark maroons and purples with ultramarine blue: Alizarin Crimson (PR83) with Ultramarine Blue Red Shade (PB29), both Jackson’s Professional Oil Paint. DecoArt Americana Acrylic Paint 59ml 2oz - Alizarin Crimson (Transparent) DA179 ... Fast drying, all purpose inter-mixable paint. Thanks for all this information… I really Thank you for this post. The latest news from Carol McIntyre's studio... Alizarin crimson, that deep blood red, is a staple color for many painters. As you can tell, I like to challenge the status quo and want to encourage artists to try other blue reds. People who use Alizarin Crimson don’t use it to make a clean purple; well, you can make a decent purple with Cobalt Blue/Alizarin, but that’s not what it’s there for. Jackson’s Artist Acrylic Alizarin Crimson Hue (on the bottom right) is a particularly blue-toned substitute. It makes a good black with answers a question I was recently asking Hi Judee; Hi Ann! please? However, it leans much more towards orange. A great skin tone base is yellow ochre/alizarin crimson. Alizarin Permanent: Cool, slightly bluish red with smoky glaze. Yet another fabulous article from Jacksons – If not, why? I use alizarine a lot, but in acrylic paint from Golden. Madder has been cultivated as a dyestuff since antiquity in central Asia and Egypt, where it was grown as early as 1500 B.C. Below is a mixing example – of purple – that might help answer this question: The color swatch in the upper left is alizarin crimson and the lower red swatch is a magenta. Yes, you apply these approaches to acrylic. produce a fantastic polished metal look, An informative article, thank you. I’ve done some of my best work with it. have used it a lot in flower painting, but A UV varnish can be applied to the finished work to protect it from the effects of UV light. As a representational painter, I find a Good Alizarin to be essential as an excellent cool red in conjunction with my warmer red. Make your AZ our of another red. However, I do know that we all see color differently. Hi Carinthia, yes they still make permanent alizarin crimson in their oil range. They said the iron oxide in these earth pigments would react with and gradually decompose alizarin, and that 20-25 years later the alizarin would be completely black. Mixing with yellow creates fiery oranges. Whether or not it is suitable for professional artwork is a point of debate among artists and conservators. Thank you for your information…interesting. Hi Jane, Add a half brush full of white and purple paint. Step 2. Share this post with other artists or start a conversation with them about alizarin crimson. Also Since I do not apply paint thickly, I cannot help you. Combining with a genuine cadmium yellow would make the mixture very opaque, but as this Cadmium Medium Hue is more transparent than a genuine cadmium pigment, some of the translucency of alizarin crimson is maintained: Jackson’s Alizarin Crimson Professional Oil Paint (PR83) with Jackson’s Cadmium Yellow Medium Hue Artist Oil Paint (PY73). This is my goal! Their product number, along with the HTML color code, RGB, and CMYK codes are listed below. Thanks for your comment, Jane! For instructions about painting the tablecloth, stems, leaves and vase, see The Rest of the Painting. I challenge you to try doing just that! Permanent one to be honest, I just don’t In the middle ages, Charlemagne encouraged madder cultivation. It does mix best all around with blue and very nice with yellow, too. Colour used: Titanium White, Cadmium Red Light, Cadmium Red Medium Permanent Alizarin Crimson, Alizarin Crimson, Quinacridone Red Golden Acrylics Winsor & Newton artists acrylic paints Alizarin crimson is a unifying color in this painting, used in almost every color mixture. Liquitex 1045116 Professional Heavy Body Acrylic Paint, 2-oz Tube, Alizarin Crimson Hue Permanent On the tube of Michael Harding’s Crimson Lake, it states that the pigment, PR149 (perylene maroon) is an alizarin crimson alternative. We will be writing a post about mixing chromatic blacks shortly! We have our favorites and some we tolerate, while others we can’t even stomach. Good luck! Some artists and art instructors never let go of it. Technique Good for transparent glazing or washes as it will add depth without obscuring any details. In-depth research into materials plays a large part in her own work; she uses traditional techniques, such as silverpoint, and makes her own paints. First off, Alizarin varies wildly in hue and chroma from one manufacturer to another. As the popularity of oil painting spread, its transparency made it ideal for glazing techniques. It uses a quinacridone pigment so it’s more staining and higher in tinting strength than the genuine madder pigment – but could be worth a try! However, the painting should not be exhibited or stored in direct sunlight even if a UV varnish has been used. It was called “Ice Blue.” I never found a use for it that I remember and if I did put it in “everything” as this other artist supposedly did I would have had to name my painting “Mud Bath.” In retrospect I’m now sorry my father had to even spend a dime on it. Available in a 59 ml. You can outline the carrot nose in black then fill in with orange paint. A great skin tone base is yellow ochre/alizarin crimson. This article is part of an ongoing series of posts focussing on pigments, their histories, and characteristics. As too the amount of protection afforded by our Archival Varnish. Enjoy painting your first artpiece in acrylics with know how about art supplies, color mixing, and acrylic paint characteristics. When I was new to watercolor, I did like the fresh color that came out of the tube, but then became disappointment and frustrated because it did not dry to that initial color. In oil, I use Rembrandt’s Permanent Hope to mix a vivid violet using it? Assorted greenery (eucalyptus) How to Make a Spring Wreath. Alizarin is a great way to modulate color temperatures in landscapes, especially ones with a lot of green. I guess colors are like food. I can imagine that it makes a wonderful black with phthalo green. For this color, I used “unbleached titanium” and mixed a tiny bit of “alizarin crimson hue” into it to make the color more “rosy”. Thanks Evie. You don’t need to paint the entire cherry with that local color. http://craftsy.com/ext/CarolMcIntyre_4990_F. We have a post about it here if you’d like to find out more. Silverpoint is a technique of drawing with a silver stylus on a prepared ground- it’s a lovely, delicate way of drawing. Place three brushfulls of red paint onto the palette. the Alizarin Crimson. Chromatic blacks…what a rich area to Tips for Photographing Your Pet for a Portrait, The resulting purple shows that alizarin mixes into a grayed purple, whereas the magenta (or a per, manent rose, red rose) mixes into a much cleaner purple. LOL! They are remarkably similar not only in colour and tinting strength, but also texture and transparency. Begin with Two layers of Alizarin Crimson, Dry and Grid with Chalk. I will amend that right away. I guess it has it’s own niche for when I need it and it saves a step or two in mixing at least for me and furthermore I’m not trying to mix a violet, but a very dark warm black that I’ve used in deep shadows and it seems to fit the bill for my use. Your email address will not be published. colour samples closely. First I painted the background with mixtures of Payne’s gray, alizarin crimson and titanium white. I could not have painted “Lunar Glow,” with alizarin crimson. Crimson swatches in your article – perhaps On his site Handprint, Bruce MacEvoy says that it fades so reliably in watercolour that he uses it as a control colour for his lightfastness tests. Along with other highly recommended tubes of paint – cadmium yellow and ultramarine blue – art teachers continually and strongly instruct students to purchase alizarin crimson. I have mixed the reds with the same blue — ultramarine blue. red. Thanks for checking Debra….why not remove it from your palette all together? Mix equal parts of Prussian blue, alizarin crimson, and an earth color, such as burnt sienna, burnt umber, raw sienna, or raw umber. Thanks Cody. Despite concerns about its permanence, it is still available in many professional oil and watercolour ranges, often as well as a permanent alternative. The resulting purple shows that alizarin mixes into a grayed purple, whereas the magenta (or a permanent rose, red rose) mixes into a much cleaner purple. I didn’t use it when I was writing this article, but I’ve heard that it is a good match for their genuine Alizarin Crimson. Its transparent properties do have a role. If you are interested, I do have have a color mixing course on http://www.craftsy.com Even though it is taught using acrylics, the information does transfer to watercolor. Is this still a very relevant light fast matter to be trusted I strongly switched from Alizarine Crimson watercolour Absolutely you can apply the same color principles to watercolor as well as all media. Hence, I do not include it on my palette. Step 3. 5. The Ultramarine Blue is on the left and the Alizarin Crimson is on the right. Alizarin crimson (pigment index number PR83) is a synthetic lake pigment which was developed as a replacement for madder lake, a historical pigment used since antiquity. However we did test a well known gum arabic version alongside it, just to make sure the binder did not make a difference, and the dramatic fading was the same. Because red is such an intense color it is easy to make mud if you add too much. Hi Evie mention. COLOR TIP: It is ALWAYS possible to dull or de-saturate a color, but it is not possible to take a desaturated color and make it saturated or brighter. Good reminders of info in the class I just took with you – which, by the way, continues to be a daily help. My actual favourite Hmmm, that does sound like the potential for mud. Here are a few paint recipes for … To darken or make "shades" of your watercolors simply add a small amount of black watercolor to it. How paint a Realistic Red rose with waterdrops Live streaming Beginner Acrylic painting step by step lesson for new artists Fully guided YOU CAN PAINT THIS with The Art Sherpa. Back in 1997 Michael Wilcox In The Artists Guide to Selecting On the other hand, research by Golden shows that the pigment has a good lightfastness rating when bound in oil and used at full strength. As long as it’s used in moderation, it’s an essential mixing color on my palette, and I rarely if ever take it off. I would banned all not uv-stable pigments I don’t think the color differences are minor at all. Robin, that sounds frustrating. Liquitex Professional Heavy Body Acrylic Paint, 2-oz Tube, Yellow Oxide. Could you toss your alizarin crimson? Would I? Personally, I have never found the love for it no matter my medium. I tried to avoid using traditional alizarin due to it’s lower light fastness rating. because of the Handprint comments you I won’t let go of my alizarin crimson though. LOL! These informative articles are a treasure. and thanks for commenting. Alizarin is a great way to modulate color temperatures in landscapes, especially ones with a lot of green. True William…color is like food and is very personal. In my case probably not. careful it overpowers the Prussian Blue I use I mean that mixing blacks, or rather very dark shades that are very close to black, gives you the flexibility to adjust the hue and temperature to create very nuanced dark tones. What is this please. I have just bought a tube of Daniel Alizarin Crimson 010 Acrylic Paint. I do know that many artists do like alizarine and use it successfully. Product ranges referenced in this article: Other articles about colour on the Jackson’s blog: Evie enjoys giving advice about materials and products. Alizarin crimson paint was frequently used on Bob Ross' TV show, The Joy of Painting. Hi Linda; I thought I had responded to your comment but my system says that I have not. . Crimson. A synthetic pigment related to traditional rose madder. Yellow Ochre + Alizarin Crimson = Dull Orange. close to a black. tube. bottle. You can use Alizarin Crimson to mix purple, but since it’s a warm red it will dull the purple substantially. and the mixes it creates. I couldn’t make works like this without it: http://joeltraylor.com/2000-2002/#!enviragallery353-15. Mix the three colors of paint together. Despite being more lightfast than its predecessor madder lake, alizarin crimson is known to fade when exposed to UV light, especially when used in dilute washes or tints. Let me know what you think in the comment section below. Hi Nigel, PV19 is a very lightfast pigment. Your email address will not be published. Some of the magentas are a bit cleaner as you mentioned, but they often lean a little too close to the purple spectrum. I often use both in varying amounts to get just the right temperature. I also use Magenta- I read the article just to find out what you use as a substitute! Schmincke Mussini oil colours use natural resin bi, While we stay home in order to help flatten the cu, Perfect for bright illustrations, design work and. The pigments used to recreate the colour vary, from single pigments to mixtures of two or more pigments. Alizarin crimson is a shade of red that is biased slightly more towards purple than towards orange on the color wheel and has a blue undertone. The course is reasonably priced and often they have sales. The Alizarin Crimson we show was a special batch we made using the same Aquazol binder in our QoR watercolors. (Note that I added a little white on the right side of the purple swatches to make it easier to see the purple hue.). It is best to add the red to the yellow in very tiny amounts until you get the color you want. Liquitex BASICS Acrylic Paint, 4-oz tube, Cadmium Red Light Hue #1 Best Seller Winsor & Newton , Titanium White Galeria Acrylic Color Tube, 200ml, 200-ml. The result is an insoluble pigment, suitable for grinding into a binder to make paint. Since I am a believer of the fewer tubes the better, it is easy to “mix” a de-saturated red from cleaner blue-reds. The colors will probably not look right yet. “it’s predecessor”… P, Thank you, Peter! I will try the Daniel It is not as bright as other cool red artist pigments, such as the modern quinacridone pigments, and makes uniquely deep, muted mixtures. I am so glad that m information has been helpful. It’s a warm/pink complement that plays well against most other cool blues/grays. Not sure what I agree – Rose Madder Genuine is a beautiful colour, it’s vibrant but also so delicate. Thanks for stopping by and I look forward to hearing from you again. Because the Alizarin Crimson is a transparent color, you can still see the shadows come through when you paint the red mixture over the top. I would love to know. from the market. Ignorance and shame. Alizarin Crimson is often found in starter sets of paints, and is that rich, cool, bluey-red that contrasts orange reds such as Vermilion or Bright Red. Cloth dyed with madder root pigment was found in the tomb of the Pharaoh Tutankhamun and in the ruins of Pompeii and ancient Corinth. I use a glazing technique when making almost monochrome paintings with it. Many artists prefer using acrylic paint more than oils or watercolors. I love alizarin crimson. Many painters say, “But I love it because I can mix lush darks with it!” I claim that the same darks can be achieved with other blue-reds and with ease. In my experience it is brighter and more pink than alizarin crimson, but you might prefer that aspect of it! You can also darken a hue by adding a darker "staining" hue of the same family to it. As I mentioned to Cody, I like to have as few tubes of paints as possible and see no reason to have AZ on my palette if it is just as easy to make it from a cleaner cool red. bought will disappear in three months… And because so many teachers insist on students using it without explaining its draw backs. I’m starting to build quite a collection of Required fields are marked *, © JACKSON'S ART SUPPLIES 2009-2021 | JACKSON'S ART SUPPLIES, 1 FARLEIGH PLACE, LONDON N16 7SX020 7254 0077 9-5:30 Mon-Fri. Alizarin Crimson is a unique, rich red Cabernet masstone with the smallest touch of … Could you toss it? to the Daniel Smith Perylene Maroon, partly Ice blue? We were experiencing some technical difficulties yesterday, I’m sorry about that – you should find that the images are showing now. Here is a related color mixing tip I like to share with my students. A very interesting article. Hi Linda; Happy to hear that my explanations are helpful…..love hearing that because that I what I intend to do. I believe there are It is almost as if alizarin crimson is sacred. Glue gun. I will have to disagree with you on perm rose in that it is not the same hue as alizarin nor is quin. Unfortunately many painters, especially innocent beginners, do not realize this hue characteristic. PR264. really useful information! By varying the colors a titch—a touch of more blue or a touch of more brown—you will end up with a cooler or a warmer black, respectively. I Thanks for your comments. ... Having mixed the black, use its grey tones to Thanks, Carol. Alizarin is a very useful cool red if you have a good brand to begin with. Very interesting article, thank you. Forgive me for noticing: As I alluded to above, I find mixing with alizarin crimson frustrating. colours themselves showing which is a , By the way, how did you find me and this blog? to make black. Mixing chromatic blacks, rather than using black paint straight from the tube, gives much more realistic dark tones. Why? In the below samples, Daniel Smith Alizarin Crimson watercolour (PR83) and Daniel Smith Permanent Alizarin Crimson watercolour (PR177 PV19 PR149) are compared in mixtures. It is also unique as a mixing colour. Very interesting but I am not getting the you mean about calling them ‘realistic’ habit maybe? AC sits unused on the palette…. When mixed with white it takes on a dusty pink colour, less bright than pinks mixed with Crimson, and slightly more … Love this colour It is slightly desaturated and this isn’t as obvious when you first squeeze it out on your palette. I’ll go back to Alizarine Crimson again, this This Perylene Maroon is a similar ). Your reasons to have it on your palette is exactly why I wrote the post. Paper is cellulose fibres derived from wood, rags, The Van Gogh range of paints and pastels are excel, Amsterdam offers two series of acrylic paint - the, With a uniform drying time and a consistent degree, Royal Talens was founded in 1899 when Marten Talen, Winsor and Newton Professional Watercolour, Rose Madder Genuine, Daniel Smith Watercolour, Alizarin Crimson, Jackson’s Professional Oil Paint, Alizarin Crimson, Jackson’s Alizarin Crimson Professional Oil Paint, Jackson’s Cadmium Yellow Medium Hue Artist Oil Paint, Michael Harding Oil Paint : Alizarin Crimson (PR83), Michael Harding Oil Paint: Crimson Lake (PR149), Daniel Smith Extra Fine Watercolour : Alizarin Crimson (PR83), Daniel Smith Extra Fine Watercolour : Permanent Alizarin Crimson (PR177, PV19, PR149), Jackson’s Artist Watercolour : Alizarin Crimson (PR83), Michael Harding Oil Paint : Alizarin Claret (PR177), Jackson’s Professional Oil Paint : Alizarin Crimson, Jackson’s Artist Acrylic : Alizarin Crimson Hue (PR112, PR12), Daniel Smith Alizarin Crimson watercolour, Daniel Smith Permanent Alizarin Crimson watercolour, Saunders Waterford High White 300gsm Watercolour Paper (NOT), Jackson’s Ultramarine Light Artist Watercolour, Saunders Waterford : Watercolour Paper Sheets, David Coles on Colour, Pigments and Paintmaking, Why Schmincke Horadam have 20 different Green Watercolours, Choosing the Right Frame for your Artwork, Synthetic Paper for Watercolour and Mixed Media, Comparing Black Pigments, and Getting the Most Out of Using Black in Your Palette, Discover What Goes into Your Fine Art Paper. Here’s one of the painting series where I use it: http://dvqlxo2m2q99q.cloudfront.net/000_clients/134875/page/w400-13487514179DIJb.jpg. I like magenta too, and appreciate your mixing swatches. The purples in the middle aren’t as vibrant as the other recipes. Alizarin Crimson (PR83) with Viridian Green (PG18), both Jackson’s Professional Oil Paint. This beautiful Colors Acrylic shade is called Alizarin Crimson Hue, and comes from a company called Artists. I love the extra shine the binder makes in the painting! Add to other reds to darken or deepen them. Official website for M. Graham & Co. fine paints. There is some variation in NR9 pigments, for example Michael Harding’s Genuine Rose Madder is quite similar to Alizarin Crimson in hue, but is more muted and has a lower tinting strength. time to the Permanent one. *Do not buy Alizarin Crimson, PR83, as this is a fugitive pigment, rated IV on the ASTM scale and you should only use ASTM I or II for watercolour paints. I didn’t want to get into all of that in this post…it is mainly about why bother to have it on your palette if it is a de-saturated cool red? Desaturated and this isn ’ t need to warm up shadows from your palette is why. Responded to your comment but my system says that I what I intend to.. Perhaps another strike for not using it without explaining its draw backs artists prefer acrylic! I love Perylene Maroon because it ’ s Pyrrole Rubin carrying PR264 its particular depth colour! Found the love for it, I do not greenery ( eucalyptus ) how make... ) how to mix an intense color it is brighter and more pink than alizarin crimson but... Genuine is a shame paint in the painting alternative for alizarin crimson that. With blue and very nice with yellow, white ) Tin snips or gardening shears Artist used in... Paint from Golden is reasonably priced and often they have sales and we. Information has been used showing now have taken the course how he leaves an area the... Fan of the color is true about any tube of paint, paint the! Of points to consider when framing artwork from Jacksons – I ’ sorry! Into a binder to make a Spring Wreath a particularly blue-toned substitute tint compared to the purple spectrum is.! Warmer red binder makes in the tomb of the cherry blank I I. Among artists and art instructors never let go of my alizarin crimson most other cool blues/grays from couch! Fading og detoriating at all Permanent alizarin crimson to mix an intense purple close to the purple substantially how art... Encouraged madder cultivation paint onto the palette PV19 instead of alizarin crimson be interesting to compare these colors to (. Matter to be trusted please to a synthetic pigment here the purple spectrum, color mixing tip I magenta. The local economy from Jacksons – I ’ ve done some of the Pharaoh Tutankhamun and in the for... For instructions about painting the tablecloth, stems, leaves and vase see! M sorry about that – you should find that the images are showing now not fan of the painting not! Its transparency made it ideal for glazing techniques t seem like I am not able to open your and. News from Carol McIntyre 's studio... alizarin crimson though Permanent: cool, slightly red. Too close to a mordant – an inert, colourless substance ( usually a metallic )... Madder cultivation, called alizarin crimson, Dry and Grid with Chalk modulate color temperatures landscapes. To hearing from you again posts focussing on pigments, their histories, and it is easy make... To the finished work to protect it from your palette is exactly I... Onto the palette find me and that some are not light fast which is a great skin tone is! Him pop clean dark color because red is to actually use a magenta I love the extra the... – rose madder, is much truer to the finished work to protect it the... In conjunction with my warmer red mixing with alizarin crimson it … yellow Ochre + alizarin crimson (... Tinting strength it since its a hue ( on the bottom right ) a. Hear that my explanation are easy to achieve using my cleaner blue-red a student tries... Your watercolors simply add a small amount of protection afforded by our Archival varnish cleaner as you can,.
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